This thread I will post for free chit chat of any kind. What’s on your mind fellow Smoot Mates?
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I would like to ask if any one has had trouble with depression , anxiety or other mental disorders? I am curious to know how other Latter Day Saints cope with such problems.
Thats a tough one Grincho. I have a good friend (not me really!) who did have problems with depression. I think he still does actually. He has dealt with it via drugs and counselling. I don’t necessarily agree with using drugs to deal with depression, but it seems to work for him.
Grincho – your question is a pertinent one for many people. There have been many excellent ensign articles over the past ten years sharing others experiences in dealing with these issues. I suggest that would be a good reference point.
As for medication – that’s a tough one. SSRI’s can be beneficial for some folk. But here’s the rub – they are notoriously, incidiously difficult to cease once a person has commenced taking them. This has been the experience of several of my friends over the years.
(BTW, being my friend isn’t what is driving the need for medication )
FYI, I used an acronym without defining it in my previous post
“SSRI” Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. A type of drug that is used to treat depression. SSRIs slow the process by which serotonin (a substance that nerves use to send messages to one another) is reused by nerve cells that make it. This increases the amount of serotonin available for stimulating other nerves.
I know depression in both men and women are issues for many families now-a-days. I know drugs have thier place, but I think too often they are used as a first line of defence. Instead I would prefer to see proper diet, relaxation, communication, councilling and exercise being used as the front line and then drugs being used to suppliment.
I with you bruc and lilburn. Justin, exactly what they said is why I’m against drugs. Addiction is a major problem for me…not personally but morally….and I don’t like any formula to recovery that involves exposing oneself to potentially harmful and addictive substances. Having said that, it may be necessary that much I’m sure.
Just a side note, how do people who are addicted to things like Sex or pornography escape? I don’t know of counselling methods or drugs that can assist in this. Is there anything out there Justin?
I agree that a medical solution to depression is not necessarily the preferable on in many cases – as mentioned, lifestyle diet exercise can all play a part. I would offer that the Gospel can help as well. Especially studying the plan of salvation, a favourite theme in my life.
However, I also wonder about the characterisation of depression. There are plenty of people who are depressed who have got good reasons to be – be it for the state of the world and society (eg Vincent Van Gough) or because of personal struggles, or because of the weight of the world.
A friend told me that in Utah, the latest wave is very high use of Prozac amongst the RS sisters. I wonder about a world where the use of a pharmaceutical product becomes the norm. In previous decades it was other antidepressants as well as addictive powders such as Vincents and Becks, both here and overseas. Mothers little helpers…
Are we as a culture generally incapable of looking beyond a medical solution for unhappy families?
Hey Brucifer, I heard Gough Whitlam was a Fabian. Aside from that, and a few hushed vague remarks from conspiracy theorists, I know nothing about them.
* Gough Whitlam (ALP Prime Minister 1972–75)
* Bob Hawke (ALP Prime Minister 1983–1991)
* Paul Keating (ALP Prime Minister 1991–1996)
* John Cain (ALP Premier of Victoria)
* Jim Cairns (ALP Deputy Prime Minister)
* Don Dunstan (ALP Premier of South Australia)
* Neville Wran (ALP Premier of NSW 1976–86)
* Frank Crean (ALP Deputy Prime Minister)
* Arthur Calwell (ALP Former ALP Leader)
* Henry Hyde Champion (Journalist)
* John Percy Jones (Businessman)
* Nettie Palmer (Writer)
* Ernest Besant-Scott (Historian)
* Lucy Morice (Feminist)
* Charles Strong (Clergyman)
* William Henry Archer (Statistician)
* Edward Shann (Economist)
* Charles Marson (Clergyman)
* David Charleston (Trade Unionist)
* John Howlett Ross (Teacher)
* Bernard O’Dowd (Writer)
I find the comments on anti depressants interesting especially since they are not addictive. I have pharmacology texts opened in front of me and as far as I can tell SSRI and not active drugs.
Phil Anthropist I would like to point out as a member of the Relief Society, perhaps the reason the sisters need prozac is the unrealistic expectations (real or perceived) the sisters believe they need to live up to.
Grincho, as far as I know they are not told to be addictive, but there are cases were people have found themselves addicted. But Justin may overrule me on that one.
Addiction is a word that is flaunted by Psychologists way too much. You can be addicted to almost anything. Have you ever been through the DSM lately? It’s full of disorders that could apply to almost anyone.
Many of the authorities in the psychiatric field in Australia and in other parts of the world consider the DSM as “A piece of American imperialism” and do not find it credible. At the moment I can not think of the name of the reference which is considered the standard to work by. As soon as I find the name I will post it.
What’s a “DSM?” I thought it stood for “distinguished service medal”…
BTW – even though clinically the Drs all say SSRIs are not ‘addictive’ why do so many people go through hell trying to come off them after they feel they are able to cope on their own?!?!??!?!? Me being one of them!!
A few comments on Prozac (or Paxil, Zoloft, Xelexa, Lexapro or any other SSRI’s). Prozac gets into the gaps between neurons (nerve cells in the brain) and inhibits the serotonin reuptake process. So when a neuron releases serotonin the Prozac ensures that it stays in the synaptic gap longer, which creates more neural cell firing.
The effect is much like that of heroin or cocaine, except the effect is not instantaneous, but rather, takes around 4 weeks.
Prozac has been shown to offer benefits above placebo and no-treatment control groups, so we know it works. And as I understand it’s good for depression as well as anxiety, panic attacks, social phobia, OCD and even some eating disorders.
My understanding is that it’s controversial because people see its use as a shortcut. We know that effective therapy (cognitive therapy, where we change a person’s thoughts over time from feeling they are no good, the world is terrible and the future is hopeless, is the therapy of choice) can assist in treating depression. Prozac is just as effective but without the hard work. So if you believe in the idea of ‘no pain, no gain’ you probably won’t like that a pill can give you results. Secondly, it has been shown to change personality and has given birth to the idea of ‘cosmetic psychopharmocology’ because the results are typically positive. Personality is generally thought to be stable, yet Prozac can get rid of nasty traits we wish we didn’t have.
So is this good or bad? Too thine own self be true… or Be all that you can be.
I’m setting up a dichotomy that is mutually exclusive here, because to be true means don’t take it. To be all that you can be means do take it. When we work hard at something and change occurs we get moral credit for it.
And it’s easy for people like me, moulmein or others who have been blessed cortically to be “critical” (not that there’s been any – I’m just saying it as an example) or preach about the importance of hard work and the unnatural issues surrounding chemical shortcuts. But there are people, who through no fault of their own have ended up with neural circuitry that puts their balance on the negative side of life. Perhaps Prozac (and other SSRI’s) is a way to compensate for what nature has dished up.
As for comments about the DSM-IV-TR, it is not perfect, and has gone through many revisions. Changes have been made due to political posturing instead of empirical research (in the case of homosexuality and other moral issues being removed from being classed as psychopathologies). However, it’s the best we’ve got, and it is still a highly credible piece of information. Used correctly by an appropriately trained professional, it provides assistance that we would be in all sorts of trouble without.
Finally, http://www.ldsmag.com/athome/070212molasses.html provides a really interesting look at an LDS woman in Utah dealing with depression. It’s a well written informal piece that informs and I recommend it.
Sorry Brucifer, your post came through while I was typing.
The DSM is the Diagnostics and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, and it’s the handbook for psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health practitioners. It contains loads of information for accurate assessment of psychopathology, although due to the heteronomous nature of so many of the disorders there is often confusion and misdiagnosis. However, it is the best we’ve got, and an amazing amount of research has gone into its construction.
As for the addictive nature of the SSRI’s, the body likes it. The brain responds to it. Of course it’s hard to get off. Some people do better than others. Some people have no problem at all. And you don’t know who it’ll be until they’re on it and trying to get off it.
I feel that medical treatment of depression according to the best known approach is valid in many instances, but that there is certainly a trade off.
I see the mind and spirit, in having it’s more extreme sensitivities rounded off, may possibly lose a fraction of its humanity and its uniqueness.
Here’s a true story. Back in the 80s’, my (future) mother-in-law was depressed, for a long while. One day while putting the washing on the line, feeling depressed, she prayed, and 3 white doves came and landed on the line. She felt a little better, that it was special. Then the next day, 3 LDS missionaries knocked on the door and taught her the gospel. Her mind flashed back to the doves, because she felt the same feeling.
Another story I like concerns Vincent Van Gough. He was very depressed, a talented artist, amd a drunk. Somebody asked him why he drank. He said, “I drink to achieve the yellows”. His radical response to the treatment of the poor was to cut off his ear and mail it to the local administrator, in protest for the situation of housing for the poor. He was sent to an asylum and died not long after.
While I certainly don’t advocate self harm, the beautiful message from Vincent’s life is that because of his commitment to exceed the norms of his context, he was indeed able to see things that others simply overlooked. For him, his madness was a type of boldness that left a lasting impression on the world.
I wonder what Prozac would have done to either of these two true stories, applied before the defining moments. Would it have homogenised their lives yet eclipsed their higher achievements?
Give me life. Let it be raw, but give it to me straight.
I find your final remarks just a little confronting. Just because some one is on medication does not mean they are unable to live a full life. It enables some people to achieve, and to do what they are otherwise are too depressed or too labile to focus.
Have you lived with some one suffering from a mood disorder? Have you seen their pain and feelings of worthlessness consume them. There is nothing romantic about it.
I agree with that. I don’t believe that someone seeking help should be denied the opportunity for a medical solution.
Having said that, in my view, there isn’t one person alive that hasn’t got some sort of character flaw. There is resultantly a spectrum of depression. Within that spectrum there are going to be those who could overcome the challenges facing them, through other means, be it through spiritual development, artistic expression, or education, or fulfilling lifes goals, or changing the pattern of their lives.
I also believe that what really can make the difference in many cases is cognitive development, with or without the drugs: A process of acquiring skills to meet the challenges of life that previously left someone in a sort of cycle of depression. This is where strength is really developed.
So at risk of sounding unsympathetic, my feeling is that chasing down your demons, whatever they are, and confronting them, is a more permanent solution than using blockers to take the edge of reality.
Phil, idealogically you may be right, but in the context of day to day grief, tragedy and life I think your view is naive. In simplest terms, these drugs save lives. These drugs save families.
Now I accept fully that they are mixed in their success, and some struggle to get off them again.
But chasing down your demons and confronting them, while potentially more permanent, will not work if one cannot see beyond their pillowcase. To understand what Beck’s depressive triad feels like is to see the world with new eyes.
Going back up the thread a bit, Grincho said “perhaps the reason the sisters need prozac is the unrealistic expectations (real or perceived) the sisters believe they need to live up to.”
I think Grincho’s dead on the money here. My wife and I are flat out between work, church and looking after two young kids, as most LDS would be. But the key difference is that the work I’m doing is highly valued by society, while my wife’s work (raising kids, looking after theh ouse) is largely looked down upon. It’s a massive toll for LDS women. To do such difficult work as raising young kids, but to not feel valued by society for it, is a heavy burden that I don’t think I’d enjoy at all.
My other thought: I tend to think that there should be a distinction between full-blown clinical depression, and the “I’m depressed” kind of feeling. I suppose only the individual and their health-care professional can really know where they sit. For the latter, I think you’d want to look at lifestyle etc. But for the former, I’m sympathetic to the view that there’s something medical about the condition, which then justifies a medical response.
Another thought on this issue: while I don’t have much personal experience, several people close to me have dealth with various personal difficulties, and they’ve benefited enormously from LDS counsellors and good books (by LDS authors and others).
I know other LDS who, quite naively in my view, think that all knowledge can be obtained through the scriptures and prayer, and try to muddle through that way. The problem I have that approach is that you’re implicitly saying, “I dismiss the notion that any other person could have received personal revelation that could also help me”. There are so many resources out there, and since we know from the scriptures that all truth ultimately comes from God, it’s worth accessing them. ‘lay hold upon every good thing’
Another spin on this thread – Though I have know many folks (including myself) that have had difficulty with various medications, I totally suppport Justin’s post.
I believe that we live in an age where we have been blessed with many technological advancements. there are many folks that have successfully being treated for depression and getting on with their lives as a result of assistance from medication.
I sincerely believe that counsel given in the word of wisdom can be used for medications (of all sorts – I’m sure you wouldn’t begrudge someone with a headache taking asprin and say ‘it’s your pain, deal with it’) insomuch as we use medications with prudence and with thanksgiving.
I also take the point we should be doing our best to follow the counsel in various places in the doctrine and covenants (namely sections 88 and 89) to eat well, rest, exercise, study etc.
I daresay that ‘chasing down demons’ for some folks would potentially lead to more harm than good at a given point in time. Let us remember the counsel of the preacher “to everything there is a season and purpose given under heaven”
There is also another approach to depression (and I’m not talking about chronic disorders here). I believe meditation can be helpful. For some people this is connected to non-Christian religions or occult practices. I am talking about meditation in a Christian context, where the individual spends time exploring their relationship to God and the world.
Meditation, including many of the non-Christian types, is a fabulous way to “quiet the self”. Personally, I use Transcendental Meditation. I obviously do not subscribe to the pursuant religious ideaology associated with it, however, the repetition of a mantra and a focus on quieting the incessant chatter we inundate ourselves with, is a wonderful way to slow things down and rebalance.
Once again, however, a genuinely clinically depressed patient is unlikely to be able to quiet that negative, pervasive inner voice. So in principle I agree Phil, but again, there’s more to it than just getting away from it all.
Echo, great points. There’s a big difference. One key is activity, but again for the genuinely depressed person, they simply can’t do it.
And I also wanted to point out Grincho’s great comment about LDS women. Echo, spot on. Likewise, many men struggle if they don’t glean great satisfaction from their careers. Pulling yourself up by the bootstraps just won’t work at times. Effective counselling, great books, and medication have their place and can make a difference.
Finally, it’s not a sign of weakness to medicate for something like this. Sometimes it’s a sign of strength and optimism. It’s a recognition that this monster is bigger than I can deal with, and resources exist to help in the battle. By accepting the prescription there’s a feeling that it can and will be defeated.
The Mormon Way of Doing Business by Jeff Benedict.
Great book, and you don’t have to be involved in business to appreciate it. It’s a book that’s made me want to be a better husband and father, and a better servant of the Lord and His Children.
Highly recommended. Light reading, optimistic, simple in principles. And faith promoting.
It’ll cost around $40 in hardback from A&R or Dymocks, and is well worth the read.
I’ve come to enjoy meditation without adhering to the religious and spiritual messages that come with it. Guided meditation for me is the greatest soul quieter that you can do, except being in the temple. I recommend it to anyone in or out of the church.
February 11, 2007 at 9:07 pm
I would like to ask if any one has had trouble with depression , anxiety or other mental disorders? I am curious to know how other Latter Day Saints cope with such problems.
February 12, 2007 at 8:56 am
Thats a tough one Grincho. I have a good friend (not me really!) who did have problems with depression. I think he still does actually. He has dealt with it via drugs and counselling. I don’t necessarily agree with using drugs to deal with depression, but it seems to work for him.
February 12, 2007 at 9:51 am
Why don’t you agree with using drugs for depression?
February 12, 2007 at 11:35 am
Grincho – your question is a pertinent one for many people. There have been many excellent ensign articles over the past ten years sharing others experiences in dealing with these issues. I suggest that would be a good reference point.
As for medication – that’s a tough one. SSRI’s can be beneficial for some folk. But here’s the rub – they are notoriously, incidiously difficult to cease once a person has commenced taking them. This has been the experience of several of my friends over the years.
(BTW, being my friend isn’t what is driving the need for medication
)
Happy to talk to you further off-line.
February 12, 2007 at 11:39 am
FYI, I used an acronym without defining it in my previous post
“SSRI” Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. A type of drug that is used to treat depression. SSRIs slow the process by which serotonin (a substance that nerves use to send messages to one another) is reused by nerve cells that make it. This increases the amount of serotonin available for stimulating other nerves.
February 12, 2007 at 3:05 pm
I know depression in both men and women are issues for many families now-a-days. I know drugs have thier place, but I think too often they are used as a first line of defence. Instead I would prefer to see proper diet, relaxation, communication, councilling and exercise being used as the front line and then drugs being used to suppliment.
February 12, 2007 at 8:17 pm
I with you bruc and lilburn. Justin, exactly what they said is why I’m against drugs. Addiction is a major problem for me…not personally but morally….and I don’t like any formula to recovery that involves exposing oneself to potentially harmful and addictive substances. Having said that, it may be necessary that much I’m sure.
Just a side note, how do people who are addicted to things like Sex or pornography escape? I don’t know of counselling methods or drugs that can assist in this. Is there anything out there Justin?
February 13, 2007 at 11:51 am
Are any of you members or know in detail about the Fabian society in Australia? I’d be interested in your thoughts and opinions…
February 13, 2007 at 2:54 pm
I agree that a medical solution to depression is not necessarily the preferable on in many cases – as mentioned, lifestyle diet exercise can all play a part. I would offer that the Gospel can help as well. Especially studying the plan of salvation, a favourite theme in my life.
However, I also wonder about the characterisation of depression. There are plenty of people who are depressed who have got good reasons to be – be it for the state of the world and society (eg Vincent Van Gough) or because of personal struggles, or because of the weight of the world.
A friend told me that in Utah, the latest wave is very high use of Prozac amongst the RS sisters. I wonder about a world where the use of a pharmaceutical product becomes the norm. In previous decades it was other antidepressants as well as addictive powders such as Vincents and Becks, both here and overseas. Mothers little helpers…
Are we as a culture generally incapable of looking beyond a medical solution for unhappy families?
February 13, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Hey Brucifer, I heard Gough Whitlam was a Fabian. Aside from that, and a few hushed vague remarks from conspiracy theorists, I know nothing about them.
From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Fabian_Society
Notable members
* Gough Whitlam (ALP Prime Minister 1972–75)
* Bob Hawke (ALP Prime Minister 1983–1991)
* Paul Keating (ALP Prime Minister 1991–1996)
* John Cain (ALP Premier of Victoria)
* Jim Cairns (ALP Deputy Prime Minister)
* Don Dunstan (ALP Premier of South Australia)
* Neville Wran (ALP Premier of NSW 1976–86)
* Frank Crean (ALP Deputy Prime Minister)
* Arthur Calwell (ALP Former ALP Leader)
* Henry Hyde Champion (Journalist)
* John Percy Jones (Businessman)
* Nettie Palmer (Writer)
* Ernest Besant-Scott (Historian)
* Lucy Morice (Feminist)
* Charles Strong (Clergyman)
* William Henry Archer (Statistician)
* Edward Shann (Economist)
* Charles Marson (Clergyman)
* David Charleston (Trade Unionist)
* John Howlett Ross (Teacher)
* Bernard O’Dowd (Writer)
February 13, 2007 at 7:31 pm
I find the comments on anti depressants interesting especially since they are not addictive. I have pharmacology texts opened in front of me and as far as I can tell SSRI and not active drugs.
Phil Anthropist I would like to point out as a member of the Relief Society, perhaps the reason the sisters need prozac is the unrealistic expectations (real or perceived) the sisters believe they need to live up to.
February 13, 2007 at 7:41 pm
Grincho, as far as I know they are not told to be addictive, but there are cases were people have found themselves addicted. But Justin may overrule me on that one.
Addiction is a word that is flaunted by Psychologists way too much. You can be addicted to almost anything. Have you ever been through the DSM lately? It’s full of disorders that could apply to almost anyone.
February 13, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Many of the authorities in the psychiatric field in Australia and in other parts of the world consider the DSM as “A piece of American imperialism” and do not find it credible. At the moment I can not think of the name of the reference which is considered the standard to work by. As soon as I find the name I will post it.
February 13, 2007 at 8:31 pm
A change of subject, has any one see the Australian film 15 Amore, it was released in 2000. I LOVED it!!!
February 14, 2007 at 9:01 am
Not yet Grincho, But I want to. I should consider getting it out soon aye.
February 14, 2007 at 9:11 am
What’s a “DSM?” I thought it stood for “distinguished service medal”…
BTW – even though clinically the Drs all say SSRIs are not ‘addictive’ why do so many people go through hell trying to come off them after they feel they are able to cope on their own?!?!??!?!? Me being one of them!!
February 14, 2007 at 9:12 am
If talking movies, watch ‘plots with a view’ from your local video sleazy. It was great for an irreverent laugh! Jerry Springer features prominently.
February 14, 2007 at 9:28 am
A few comments on Prozac (or Paxil, Zoloft, Xelexa, Lexapro or any other SSRI’s). Prozac gets into the gaps between neurons (nerve cells in the brain) and inhibits the serotonin reuptake process. So when a neuron releases serotonin the Prozac ensures that it stays in the synaptic gap longer, which creates more neural cell firing.
The effect is much like that of heroin or cocaine, except the effect is not instantaneous, but rather, takes around 4 weeks.
Prozac has been shown to offer benefits above placebo and no-treatment control groups, so we know it works. And as I understand it’s good for depression as well as anxiety, panic attacks, social phobia, OCD and even some eating disorders.
My understanding is that it’s controversial because people see its use as a shortcut. We know that effective therapy (cognitive therapy, where we change a person’s thoughts over time from feeling they are no good, the world is terrible and the future is hopeless, is the therapy of choice) can assist in treating depression. Prozac is just as effective but without the hard work. So if you believe in the idea of ‘no pain, no gain’ you probably won’t like that a pill can give you results. Secondly, it has been shown to change personality and has given birth to the idea of ‘cosmetic psychopharmocology’ because the results are typically positive. Personality is generally thought to be stable, yet Prozac can get rid of nasty traits we wish we didn’t have.
So is this good or bad? Too thine own self be true… or Be all that you can be.
I’m setting up a dichotomy that is mutually exclusive here, because to be true means don’t take it. To be all that you can be means do take it. When we work hard at something and change occurs we get moral credit for it.
And it’s easy for people like me, moulmein or others who have been blessed cortically to be “critical” (not that there’s been any – I’m just saying it as an example) or preach about the importance of hard work and the unnatural issues surrounding chemical shortcuts. But there are people, who through no fault of their own have ended up with neural circuitry that puts their balance on the negative side of life. Perhaps Prozac (and other SSRI’s) is a way to compensate for what nature has dished up.
As for comments about the DSM-IV-TR, it is not perfect, and has gone through many revisions. Changes have been made due to political posturing instead of empirical research (in the case of homosexuality and other moral issues being removed from being classed as psychopathologies). However, it’s the best we’ve got, and it is still a highly credible piece of information. Used correctly by an appropriately trained professional, it provides assistance that we would be in all sorts of trouble without.
Finally, http://www.ldsmag.com/athome/070212molasses.html provides a really interesting look at an LDS woman in Utah dealing with depression. It’s a well written informal piece that informs and I recommend it.
February 14, 2007 at 9:32 am
Sorry Brucifer, your post came through while I was typing.
The DSM is the Diagnostics and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, and it’s the handbook for psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health practitioners. It contains loads of information for accurate assessment of psychopathology, although due to the heteronomous nature of so many of the disorders there is often confusion and misdiagnosis. However, it is the best we’ve got, and an amazing amount of research has gone into its construction.
As for the addictive nature of the SSRI’s, the body likes it. The brain responds to it. Of course it’s hard to get off. Some people do better than others. Some people have no problem at all. And you don’t know who it’ll be until they’re on it and trying to get off it.
February 14, 2007 at 5:48 pm
I feel that medical treatment of depression according to the best known approach is valid in many instances, but that there is certainly a trade off.
I see the mind and spirit, in having it’s more extreme sensitivities rounded off, may possibly lose a fraction of its humanity and its uniqueness.
Here’s a true story. Back in the 80s’, my (future) mother-in-law was depressed, for a long while. One day while putting the washing on the line, feeling depressed, she prayed, and 3 white doves came and landed on the line. She felt a little better, that it was special. Then the next day, 3 LDS missionaries knocked on the door and taught her the gospel. Her mind flashed back to the doves, because she felt the same feeling.
Another story I like concerns Vincent Van Gough. He was very depressed, a talented artist, amd a drunk. Somebody asked him why he drank. He said, “I drink to achieve the yellows”. His radical response to the treatment of the poor was to cut off his ear and mail it to the local administrator, in protest for the situation of housing for the poor. He was sent to an asylum and died not long after.
While I certainly don’t advocate self harm, the beautiful message from Vincent’s life is that because of his commitment to exceed the norms of his context, he was indeed able to see things that others simply overlooked. For him, his madness was a type of boldness that left a lasting impression on the world.
I wonder what Prozac would have done to either of these two true stories, applied before the defining moments. Would it have homogenised their lives yet eclipsed their higher achievements?
Give me life. Let it be raw, but give it to me straight.
February 14, 2007 at 9:26 pm
I find your final remarks just a little confronting. Just because some one is on medication does not mean they are unable to live a full life. It enables some people to achieve, and to do what they are otherwise are too depressed or too labile to focus.
Have you lived with some one suffering from a mood disorder? Have you seen their pain and feelings of worthlessness consume them. There is nothing romantic about it.
February 14, 2007 at 10:47 pm
I agree with that. I don’t believe that someone seeking help should be denied the opportunity for a medical solution.
Having said that, in my view, there isn’t one person alive that hasn’t got some sort of character flaw. There is resultantly a spectrum of depression. Within that spectrum there are going to be those who could overcome the challenges facing them, through other means, be it through spiritual development, artistic expression, or education, or fulfilling lifes goals, or changing the pattern of their lives.
I also believe that what really can make the difference in many cases is cognitive development, with or without the drugs: A process of acquiring skills to meet the challenges of life that previously left someone in a sort of cycle of depression. This is where strength is really developed.
So at risk of sounding unsympathetic, my feeling is that chasing down your demons, whatever they are, and confronting them, is a more permanent solution than using blockers to take the edge of reality.
February 15, 2007 at 10:28 am
Phil, idealogically you may be right, but in the context of day to day grief, tragedy and life I think your view is naive. In simplest terms, these drugs save lives. These drugs save families.
Now I accept fully that they are mixed in their success, and some struggle to get off them again.
But chasing down your demons and confronting them, while potentially more permanent, will not work if one cannot see beyond their pillowcase. To understand what Beck’s depressive triad feels like is to see the world with new eyes.
And pray that you never see the world like that.
February 15, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Going back up the thread a bit, Grincho said “perhaps the reason the sisters need prozac is the unrealistic expectations (real or perceived) the sisters believe they need to live up to.”
I think Grincho’s dead on the money here. My wife and I are flat out between work, church and looking after two young kids, as most LDS would be. But the key difference is that the work I’m doing is highly valued by society, while my wife’s work (raising kids, looking after theh ouse) is largely looked down upon. It’s a massive toll for LDS women. To do such difficult work as raising young kids, but to not feel valued by society for it, is a heavy burden that I don’t think I’d enjoy at all.
My other thought: I tend to think that there should be a distinction between full-blown clinical depression, and the “I’m depressed” kind of feeling. I suppose only the individual and their health-care professional can really know where they sit. For the latter, I think you’d want to look at lifestyle etc. But for the former, I’m sympathetic to the view that there’s something medical about the condition, which then justifies a medical response.
February 15, 2007 at 1:09 pm
Another thought on this issue: while I don’t have much personal experience, several people close to me have dealth with various personal difficulties, and they’ve benefited enormously from LDS counsellors and good books (by LDS authors and others).
I know other LDS who, quite naively in my view, think that all knowledge can be obtained through the scriptures and prayer, and try to muddle through that way. The problem I have that approach is that you’re implicitly saying, “I dismiss the notion that any other person could have received personal revelation that could also help me”. There are so many resources out there, and since we know from the scriptures that all truth ultimately comes from God, it’s worth accessing them. ‘lay hold upon every good thing’
February 15, 2007 at 1:10 pm
Another spin on this thread – Though I have know many folks (including myself) that have had difficulty with various medications, I totally suppport Justin’s post.
I believe that we live in an age where we have been blessed with many technological advancements. there are many folks that have successfully being treated for depression and getting on with their lives as a result of assistance from medication.
I sincerely believe that counsel given in the word of wisdom can be used for medications (of all sorts – I’m sure you wouldn’t begrudge someone with a headache taking asprin and say ‘it’s your pain, deal with it’) insomuch as we use medications with prudence and with thanksgiving.
I also take the point we should be doing our best to follow the counsel in various places in the doctrine and covenants (namely sections 88 and 89) to eat well, rest, exercise, study etc.
I daresay that ‘chasing down demons’ for some folks would potentially lead to more harm than good at a given point in time. Let us remember the counsel of the preacher “to everything there is a season and purpose given under heaven”
February 15, 2007 at 2:24 pm
There is also another approach to depression (and I’m not talking about chronic disorders here). I believe meditation can be helpful. For some people this is connected to non-Christian religions or occult practices. I am talking about meditation in a Christian context, where the individual spends time exploring their relationship to God and the world.
February 15, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Meditation, including many of the non-Christian types, is a fabulous way to “quiet the self”. Personally, I use Transcendental Meditation. I obviously do not subscribe to the pursuant religious ideaology associated with it, however, the repetition of a mantra and a focus on quieting the incessant chatter we inundate ourselves with, is a wonderful way to slow things down and rebalance.
Once again, however, a genuinely clinically depressed patient is unlikely to be able to quiet that negative, pervasive inner voice. So in principle I agree Phil, but again, there’s more to it than just getting away from it all.
Echo, great points. There’s a big difference. One key is activity, but again for the genuinely depressed person, they simply can’t do it.
And I also wanted to point out Grincho’s great comment about LDS women. Echo, spot on. Likewise, many men struggle if they don’t glean great satisfaction from their careers. Pulling yourself up by the bootstraps just won’t work at times. Effective counselling, great books, and medication have their place and can make a difference.
Finally, it’s not a sign of weakness to medicate for something like this. Sometimes it’s a sign of strength and optimism. It’s a recognition that this monster is bigger than I can deal with, and resources exist to help in the battle. By accepting the prescription there’s a feeling that it can and will be defeated.
February 15, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Subject Change:
I’ve got about 20 pages left to complete –
The Mormon Way of Doing Business by Jeff Benedict.
Great book, and you don’t have to be involved in business to appreciate it. It’s a book that’s made me want to be a better husband and father, and a better servant of the Lord and His Children.
Highly recommended. Light reading, optimistic, simple in principles. And faith promoting.
It’ll cost around $40 in hardback from A&R or Dymocks, and is well worth the read.
February 15, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Thanks Justin, I might have a read of it some time.
February 16, 2007 at 12:14 pm
I’ve come to enjoy meditation without adhering to the religious and spiritual messages that come with it. Guided meditation for me is the greatest soul quieter that you can do, except being in the temple. I recommend it to anyone in or out of the church.
February 16, 2007 at 12:16 pm
On books, I just came across one of the greatest in history called
‘The Simpsons and Philosophy’ – The D’oh! of Homer.
Quite a light and interesting and funny read.
February 17, 2007 at 2:48 pm
Sounds like fun.